this may be the first blog ever about star wars
The end of Return of the Jedi really disturbs me. I don't believe in divine redemption or divine anything for that matter, but I always found it hard to stomach Yoda and Obi Wan hanging out in the ethereal, luminous netherworld of The Force with the saved Darth Vader.
After watching the latest episode (slight spoiler to follow), I find it impossible that Obi Wan could stand smiling with his old buddy who slaughtered a room full of children, not to mention countless other horrendous acts over decades.
Other opinions?
After watching the latest episode (slight spoiler to follow), I find it impossible that Obi Wan could stand smiling with his old buddy who slaughtered a room full of children, not to mention countless other horrendous acts over decades.
Other opinions?
posted by sparklestone at 1:28 PM
6 Comments:
I have trouble with your lack of belief in redemption. I also see your point, however.
I see the dark side like being on drugs, subverting your good nature and causing you to do really stupid things.
Suppose Sparkle, that in my darkest days, I had gotten really trashed and ran my car into a school bus killing all 437 children on board. Are you saying that under no circumstances would you ever play wise and otherwise with me in the netherworld?
Part of my problem with your view is that it doesn't encourage anyone to improve themselves. So, I killed all these kids while I was drunk on the dark side, and Sparkle will never hang out with me again anyhow, so why stop now? Why not just zap any bastard who ever gets in my way? You wanna kill my son Luke? What do I care?
I try not to see ANYTHING as black and white, but case by case.
People do make mistakes. Matthew Broderick ran over some people, and his life goes on and he still gets work.
I don't think my problems with the ending involve Anakin/Vader. He can improve himself all he wants. If he feels redeemed, great. But Obi Wan? What Anakin did was very personal to him, not like your 437 counts of homicide and me. I just can't believe he would forgive it all.
I guess it's about forgiveness and not redemption. Miss Kate bought a book once called Forgiving the Unforgiveable or something like that. The only reason I think it is still on our bookshelf is to remind us that we both think that concept is full of crap. Somethings, I think, are unforgiveable.
This is tough for me to sort out. While I don't expect to ever willingly spend time with my parents, I don't think they're simply horrible people. Granted, they didn't cut off my limbs with a light-saber, but they are definitely a couple of demons.
I'd like to forgive them, it's just that they're too stupid to see that what they've done is indeed wrong/hurtful/naive.
I think we are often handicapped when it comes to decision making. We're influenced by our experience and our intelligence, which means I don't hold the right wing nutjobs fully responsible for their hatred. I don't believe too many of them really understand their faith or how their actions fall into (or out of) line with that guide.
For the few that do understand and continue in the same vein, I suspect their is something else driving them to take that path.
The recent movie about the last hours of Hitler's life was realing interesting to me. That guy was fucked up. His brain was not right. He had delusions of persecution, manic depression, he'd been medically hopped up on speed for like ten years. No, I'm not going to say that I wanna bingo with Adolf in the netherworld, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that under different circumstances little Adolf could have been a different person.
The more I learn about how our brains can misfunction, the more I question the game we're playing here. I feel like someone said to Hitler's essence "yeah, but can you do it blindfolded?" And then they sent him down here with half his brain while he tried to get through a predetermined life without turning into a psycopath.
He didn't make it.
Does the the person forgiving need to wait for the offender to ask for forgiveness? For me, yes. I heard that Pope John Paul II forgave the guy that shot him. Did that guy ask for that forgiveness? I don't know. But those you know those popes. All forgivie-wivvie.
Your parents are too stupid to know that they have wronged you and so you don't offer forgiveness. And I stand by you. And if they do come to that realization and beg forgiveness and you forgive them, I would understand and support you.
But is recognizing offenses and seeking forgiveness enough to warrant forgivness? I don't get to forgive Hitler. He didn't wrong me. I leave that for my great-grandmother, the only member of that family to get out of Europe. Would she forgive? I hope the fuck not.
This is how I feel about Obi Wan. It sickens me to see him smiling with his old pal.
SB put it very Buddha-like.
"The greatest justice comes from the offender living with their guilt. The greatest injustive comes from the offended not being able to forgive."
I think my strongest feeling on this comes from my belief that it is always best for *you* to forgive, even when forgiveness has not been requested.
I disagree with your assesment that Hitler didn't wrong you. I went to the Holocaust museum. It affected me. I felt anger at the injustice. We get to choose whether or not we forgive him.
The Dali Lamma tells how his mentor was executed by a chinese firing squad. As they raised their guns he said a prayer of forgiveness. He didn't wait for them to ask for it.
All that being said, SB and I came to another possible conclusion. Last minute redemption is a very Jesus thing. Growing up in a christian church makes vadar's redemtion seems... normal.
You eye-for-an-eye types don't get the same barney brainwashing we do.
First, Sylow, Darth Vader wasn't drunk and didn't drive a bus into that room of little kids. He walked into that room, the little kids recognized him as someone they trusted, and then he slaughtered them. That is unforgivable.
Second, yes, in order for me to be able to forgive someone, that someone has to ask for forgiveness. That is a vital part of the forgiveness process.
Third, I cannot forgive what someone did to someone else. That is morally presumptive of me. I'm not that big.
Fourth, I know that the bastard who personally did terrible things to me is a fucked up sonofabitch whose brain is so chemically-addled that it's probably dripping out of his ears by now. Does that mean he's not responsible for his actions? I think you know where I stand here.
Fifth, even if that person came to me asking for forgiveness (and that just ain't gonna happen, by the way), I'm not obligated to forgive him. In fact, I might even argue that I'm morally obligated to turn up the heat on his hell.
Yep, I've thought a lot about this. That book that Sparkle mentions, Forgiving the Unforgivable is a huge load of crap. A much better book on the morality of forgiveness is The Sunflower, by Simon Wiesenthal.
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